MIND CONTROL SERIES Ryerson CKLN Radio in Toronto: Producer Wayne Morris interviews Dr. Colin Ross. Third part in a Series of Broadcasts aired Sunday April 13, 1997 on CKLN-FM 88.1 in Toronto. Part 3 of transcript C.R. I don't know a whole lot about the technical side of it, but it was ... this is back in the sixties and seventies so they wouldn't have been doing satellite uplinks at that point. It would be some sort of line of sight radio beam. Another thing that was also documented in a journal called "Defence Electronics" July 1993 issue, there is a one page describing technology that is under development. There is a Russian guy who specializes in this stuff, Igor Smirnoff ... basically it is technology for beaming different forms of irradiation at people's heads. There are four or five MKULTRA projects that fiddle around with this kind of stuff. It can be either sound energy, sound percussion waves, or different types of light and radio frequencies, all kinds of different types of energy. Igor Smirnoff was brought over in March 1993 to a meeting in Northern Virginia that was attended by the CIA, the FBI, I think the Defence Intelligence Agency, I think the National Security Agency and a representative from General Electronics and a representative from one of the universities who all got together to discuss the possibility of using this technology on David Koresh, during the Branch Davidian siege. According to the article the reason they decided not to use this technology on him was the problem of software compatability between the Russian software and the American hardware. What happened as an upshot of the meeting was that a firm called Psychotechnologies which is based in Virginia actually contracted with the Russians to develop this kind of technology for possible American usage. So that is stuff which is going on under some sort of research and development currently. In the MKULTRA projects they also describe implanting brain electrodes in various kinds of animals, dolphins ... using them as delivery systems for biological or chemical weapons. That's actually in the CIA material. They describe further research to fine tune those kinds of systems that were already in successful operation. W.M. Do you have evidence of the DIA in the mind control experiments? Have you been able to get any evidence in DIA documentation? C.R. For listeners who don't know what that stands for ... Defence Intelligence Agency ... W.M. I understand that the DIA is ten times the size of the CIA. C.R. The Director of the CIA holds only about 10% of the total financial assets of the American intelligence community ... meaning that the CIA is really a tiny fragment of all the civilian and military intelligence in the USA. The National Security Agency and the Defence Intelligence Agency are both quite a bit bigger. The answer to your question is yes and no. The no part is that I don't have direct documentation of DIA mind control contracts, but it's really kind of beside the point because all of these intelligence agencies are all interconnected with each other. For instance the CIA had two programs, MKULTRA and MKNAOMI, and they got federal funds which they then put into MKNAOMI and MKNAOMI then funded the Special Operations Division at Fort Detrick and Edgeware Arsenal to do mind control research. And that's the way it is with the radiation experiments too. The Atomic Energy Commission, Health, Education and Welfare, the CIA ... all kinds of different government agencies were all interlinked, interconnected. One of the DIA programs was called Stargate. It was a liaison between the CIA and the DIA. It was just declassified within the last year. There was a program in December on ABC's Nightline, where Bill Gates (ed. he means Robert Gates) , who was a former head of the CIA, and one of the guys who was the CIA person responsible for the liaison between the CIA and the military on Stargate, and one of the guys who was a Stargate contractor ... all talking about Stargate ... which they admitted ran right up until at least 1984 and had funding of at least $20 million which is probably just the tip of the iceberg. Stargate was a remote viewing project. The intelligence agencies, all in an interconnected fashion, spent millions of dollars on remote viewing which is basically having psychics lie down on a table and try and see what is going on at some location in a foreign country to gather intelligence information. A book was just published, by Michael Joseph, which is a British branch of Penguin Books, called "Psychic Warrior" where a guy describes being one of these remote viewers. A lot of that work was done at the Stanford Research Institute in Palo Alto, California. I mention that partly because if you think creating Multiple Personality Disorder is too bizarre and strange to be real ... again, you just have to look at the LSD, the brain implant research, some of the sensory deprivation, the Ames Leaf Room, using millions and millions of dollars to pay psychics to spy on other countries while lying on tables in the USA. Once you have that context, then creating Multiple Personality Disorder is kind of small ... W.M. I understand that what was driving this was the Cold War, from the information that we have, in the 1950's ... C.R. That's true and not true. That's actually a disinformation set-up. The term "brainwashing" was invented by a man named Edward Hunter who wrote a book about brainwashing in the 1950's that I have a copy of. He invented that term and described how the American pilots and POW's in the Korean War who were captured by the Chinese and made to sign false germ warfare confessions and were converted to being Communists had been brainwashed. The whole idea was that the CIA and other intelligence agencies had to figure out how that happened. And Joly West, Margaret Singer, Robert Lifton who testified at the Patty Hearst trial ... they all interviewed these returning prisoners of war from the Korean War, and became experts on mind control, cult thought reform techniques, and so on. The idea was that, because the Communists were doing that, we had to figure out how to combat that ... it was mainly defensive, and reactive to what the Chinese were doing. But that's not true because G.H. Estabrooks was already doing that in WWII, way before the Korean War. So actually there was an offensive program of mind control by the OSS and other intelligence agencies ten years before the Korean War. The whole idea that it got started because of the Cold War is disinformation. But then it obviously got fuelled and entrenched by the Cold War. And then the question comes, well the Cold War is over, why do we need that stuff any more? And I think the answer is several-fold. One is, we in fact do need to have intelligence agencies. The world is not a safe place, and for us not to be living in Siberia and living in labour camps in Siberia, we've got to protect ourselves from all kinds of forces in the world, and it's too bad we have to have intelligence agencies ... I have no beef with the CIA as such, or the existence of an intelligence agency, I think they are essential to maintain freedom and democracy. But once you've got intelligence agencies, you've got the military and big budgets ... you've got people who, like any federal bureaucrats, have to justify their budgets and their programs. You've got people who are already into this, and you've got actual applications of it, so it will just carry on, I think, indefinitely. The fact that the Cold War is over isn't a major item in this stopping. W.M. You mentioned in your previous lecture that you don't blame the CIA per se but the psychiatrists and doctors who are or were involved in this. Do you not feel that the CIA holds some responsibility in funding and allowing the doctors and psychiatrists to operate? C.R. Oh absolutely. These people (I mean the victims of all of this) definitely did not give informed consent, definitely it was unethical, it was harmful, they deserve compensation and the federal government is on the hook for that. The idea is not that I am soft on the CIA or apologetic for them it's just that ... I am basically a psychiatrist ... so my number one concern is with all the bizarre, unethical, destructive conduct by my colleagues, and the medical ethics of it, and getting the medical profession under control. What I think needs to happen is that it should no longer be allowed that psychiatrists, psychologists, doctors - have funding from the CIA or the military without the subjects of the research knowing where the money is coming from, and knowing that it is not really medical research as such, that it is military intelligence, warfare, psychological warfare, mind control research. W.M. Some of the literature seems to suggest that Canada was offered up to supply so-called "guinea pigs" for the U.S. mind control experiments. I am particularly referring to the Allen Memorial and McGill University in Montreal, with Dr. Ewen Cameron. What do you think Canada's role has been in military mind control experiments? C.R. Well, the Canadian Psychiatric Association has put out some disinformation that has been pretty well "bought" by the Canadian public. That is that Ewen Cameron was just an isolated incident, it happened a long time ago back in the fifties, yes, he had CIA funding, there were sort of different ethical standards back then, we wouldn't approve it now, it was just a one time deal but he was such a great man we can overlook it. Well, that's not true because that research completely violated the ethical standards of the time, but also it wasn't an isolated incident. Ewen Cameron wasn't the only person at McGill at that time with CIA funding. Dr. Raymond Prince was funded through MKULTRA subproject 121 to do anthropological psychiatry research in Nigeria. He didn't know at the time it was CIA money. Donald Hebb, who at the time was head or chairman of the Department of Psychology there did a lot of sensory deprivation experiments funded by Canada's Defence Research Board. When the CIA stopped funding Ewen Cameron's work, Health, Education & Welfare Canada just picked it up. It continued this incredibly harmful, destructive, unethical research that wiped out people's memories for their whole lives. There is a man named Hassan Azima who was a psychiatrist who died in his early forties of cancer, who was being groomed to be a mind control researcher who was doing LSD and sensory deprivation experiments at McGill and he was presenting at conferences where all these CIA and military were at. He was in the loop. James Tyhurst who in 1951 was part of a committee meeting to oversee BLUEBIRD and ARTICHOKE in Canada, before Ewen Cameron got his money, was also funded by Canada's Defence Research Board. He did LSD research also at Hollywood Hospital in Vancouver, B.C. And a doctor named Dr. Ross McLean who was the Director at Hollywood Hospital in Vancouver - attended a CIA sponsored LSD symposium and described giving LSD to 338 different patients at Hollywood Hospital. So there was a lot of military LSD flowing into Vancouver, Abram Hoffer and Humphrey Osmond did a lot of military LSD research in Saskatchewan, and Humphrey Osmond then left and moved down to the New Jersey Neuropsychiatric Institute in Pennsylvania which is where Carl Pfeiffer was, which is where the Louis Castille guy was, who was over in the Phillipines and got arrested by the FBI over there. So there have been a lot of connections with Canadian psychiatry. A spin off of all of that ... some of the research is funded by the military or CIA or whoever ... and then gets published and presented at conferences and talked about, and then other civilian psychiatrists who aren't directly funded by the CIA start doing the same kind of stuff. An example of this was at Penetanguishene Hospital, which was up on Lake Huron, which was basically a heavy duty facility for people who were criminally insane or found not guilty by reason of insanity, unfit to stand trial. In the years about 1968-69 there were four papers published in the Canadian Psychiatric Journal which ... you can go to any of the medical school libraries in Canada and just pull it off the shelf and read it ... a psychiatrist named Elliott Barker, who is still alive, was working there. He invented a little room called The Capsule which was about 8x10 feet. He would put prisoners as young as 15 years old up into their early 30's in this capsule in groups of either two or up to seven at a time, for periods of days, up to eleven days at a time ... all naked and off and on LSD. So here were all these violent offenders, arsonists, murderers, rapists and so on ... and he had them all in this small capsule, all naked on LSD, kind of doing rap sessions and therapy groups with each other. The room would be monitored by other prisoners, either through video link, camera link or through a mirror in the ceiling, and other prisoners were responsible for supplying food and so on. There was one toilet inside the capsule, and they would be signalled to change one kind of therapy group to another by changing the colour of the light that was shining into the room. So they were in this kind of group sensory deprivation with different coloured lights. The idea was that this would get through their defences, and they would get to the real stuff and do real therapy. One of the co-authors on one of these papers was an H.M. Mason, who (it says on the bottom of the paper) was a patient at the Oakridge facility at Penetanguishene on F-Ward. A documentary was made about it by the CBC ... I have a copy of the video. H.M. Mason is both one of these patients who are all murderers, arsonists, rapists, and so on ... and he is in this capsule getting LSD, and he is also a co-author of the paper. Apparently several of the former inmates lived with Elliott Barker post discharge and this H.M. Mason, as far as I can tell, is the same guy as Hank Mason. Hank Mason is on the website with Eliott Barker {www.bconnex.net/~cspcc/egostate/kids.htm} for "The Canadian Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children" which is just what it says ... but the President is Elliott Barker. And this Hank Mason is identified as a founding member of the Society and has a little statement about child abuse on the website. So it would appear that the Canadian Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children has had executive members who were former violent criminals incarcerated with the criminally insane, and is run by the psychiatrist who did all this kind of research who published in the Canadian Psychiatric Association Journal. It goes on and on and on with more stories like this ... W.M. What is your sense of how many Canadian centres and doctors were involved in experimentations? C.R. Well an absolute minimum of five to ten, doctors and centres. For sure there was McGill University, Montreal and the Allen Memorial Psychiatric Institute; Weybourn, Saskatchewan and the University of Saskatchewan; Hollywood Hospital in Vancouver; Montreal General Hospital(?); and the same kind of stuff, apparently not funded by the CIA or military intelligence community was going on at Penetang at Oakridge. W.M. Is there any indication that experimentation was going on at military bases themselves? C.R. Not documented evidence, but there are quite a few accounts by patients that are unverified. W.M. You mentioned that some of the doctors who were involved in this research were unwitting. What kind of funding institutes were set up to fund this kind of research of unwitting doctors? C.R. Well these are called "cut-outs" ... a cut-out is a front funding organization. The three major ones were the Human Ecology Foundation, the Josiah Macey Jr. Foundation, and the Geschikter Medical Fund. W.M. So each of these would be funded from the CIA and then in turn they would fund ... C.R. Right. And the people who were running these organizations knew it was CIA money, and often, themselves, got grants from the CIA . One of the guys who was on the Board of the Human Ecology Foundation who reviewed grants for this foundation, and he himself got MKULTRA funding and top secret clearance was Carl Rogers. That's kind of amazing, because Carl Rogers was best known for client centred therapy, which is a kind of humanistic, valuing the kind of spiritual worth of the client kind of therapy, where you have to have accurate empathy, unconditional positive regard for the person, and generally empathy. So it's like the stereotype ... most touchy-feely psychotherapy going ... and he was actually top secret cleared, and funding secret CIA mind control research. W.M. There are a lot of doctors and some therapists out there that dismiss the idea of Multiple Personalities, and one of the things that these people are saying is that "it doesn't exist" ... it is actually temporal lobe epilepsy. What is temporal lobe epilepsy, and how is it similar to MPD? C.R. Temporal lobe epilepsy is just a form of epilepsy that takes place in the temporal lobe of your brain, so there is abnormal electrical discharge that causes you to have seizures. A typical temporal lobe seizure lasts for 30 to 90 seconds, you may become unconscious, or just get a kind of foggy consciousness, and you will usually fumble at one of your buttons, or smack your lips or turn your body in a very kind of mechanistic over-and-over scene kind of motion ... and then you pop out of it. Temporal lobe epilepsy is completely unrelated to Multiple Personality Disorder. That is just a bogus prejudice ... and there is a bunch of research that myself and others have done that showed the symptom pictures of temporal lobe epilepsy and Multiple Personality Disorder are completely different from each other. W.M. Why would people be making these claims? Why the confusion? C.R. Because they don't take accurate histories. They are very vague about what they say, and they are just grasping at straws as a way to discredit Multiple Personality basically. The more serious criticism is that Multiple Personality is often unwittingly created by bad therapists. Now, that I agree with, and I have testified about that in court. But in cases where I am testifying for the patient who is suing the therapist and I am stating as an expert witness that yes this was created by a therapist, and yes, all these memories are false, and yes, it has done all this harm. W.M. This is a very complex issue, and one that has been hotly debated in the public ... C.R. The main thing is that there actually is a whole bunch of science about Multiple Personality and Dissociation ... it is not just a matter of belief. There is a big literature now ... it has flaws in it and so on ... but there is actually a whole bunch of science ... it's not just "I believe" or "I don't believe". The curious twist in the logic is that, actually I think in all of this documentation, the military and CIA have been creating this Multiple Personality and using it in operations ... it actually proves that Multiple Personality is real. There are two things ... unless they are just wasting money, they are not going to bother with the whole exercise unless you actually can create a new identity that actually is hidden behind a real memory barrier otherwise there would be no point ... W.M. ... that could be used operationally ... C.R. Right. So then none of it is actually really, really real ... it's all an illusion in your mind. There isn't literally another person in there, but nobody in the Multiple Personality field is saying that it is real anyway, to start with. But you can create an artificial second identity and it can actually do stuff that the main part of the person doesn't remember ... that has to be true, otherwise there would be no point in creating it for military use. That proves two things: one, that it is possible to create Multiple Personality by mistake in bad therapy that mimics a lot of the conditions in military or cult mind control; but also, if you have a disorder that can be created deliberately, either by the CIA, by a destructive cult, by a therapist who doesn't really know what they are doing, or even by the person themselves, then it is not really a big jump to imagine that it could also happen just naturally and spontaneously as a way of coping with trauma. So the very fact that you can create it artificially, to me indicates that it can be created artificially or on purpose, and also that it's likely to happen naturally. W.M. Well, the other question is, how they manage to create it artificially? C.R. I have a number of cases which describe it quite a lot of detail. There is a lot of information about how they created "Tanya" in Patty Hearst. There is a lot of detail. There is a very good case from Denmark, a guy named Talle Hardrup (?) who was in jail in the late 1940's and another prisoner named Bjorn Neilsen ... a whole lot of mind control and hypnosis techniques that created this amnesic bank robber who actually went out and robbed a bank, then he went and tried to rob another bank, shot two people, didn't get away with any money, was captured. And the net outcome of this huge trial, with fifty witnesses,all kinds of psychiatric testimony, and so on ... the net outcome of it was that Bjorn Neilsen was found guilty and was sent to jail even though he wasn't physically present at any of the robberies ... and Talle Hardrup was found not guilty by reasons of insanity ... all the experts specifically said at the trial that Bjorn Neilsen used hypnosis and other methods to create a split identity in Talle Hardrup. There are a number of cases which have actually come to trial and there is a lot of detail on them. W.M. What would the methods be, and what would the links be between artifically creating Multiple Personalities and childhood trauma? C.R. The list is several-fold. One is, you have to have good control over the person's life first. You can't just see them for half an hour or one hour per week, and that's all that is required. In the Talle Hardrup case, these guys were cellmates and they also worked in the same workshop. They were basically with each other constantly for about eighteen months. If you can isolate the person from the outside world, with no contact with people who are going to be critical of what is going on or give a different point of view ... that's helpful. These things apply to destructive cults and also to the deliberate creation of multiple personality. You can use all kinds of thought reform techniques, that is, get a person to study doctrines, do all kinds of meditation exercises, chanting, hypnotic focusing exercises, internal dream imagery exercises. You get their mind into a trance state and get them to focus on what you want them to focus on, then you actually use formal hypnosis, some form of drugs, and then you deliberately instruct them that you want to create a second identity. Then you figure out what is it that this person is going to be motivated by. So in the Talle Hardrup case, this Bjorn Neilsen guy created a guardian spirit X, and whenever Bjorn Neilsen was speaking to Talle Hardrup, it was actually talking through Bjorn Neilsen. He got Talle Hardrup to buy into that because he was into all kinds of new age stuff. Then X started teaching him the path to enlightenment, so the biggest motivator was that he was going to get to enlightenment and if he didn't follow the doctrine, didn't follow the rules, didn't follow all of the tests, and didn't perform adequately, then he would lose X and lose his path to enlightenment. That was the thing he was most obsessed with. So that was the carrot that kept him going. You have to find some sort of carrot to keep the person going. Then you can use any different number of behaviour modification techniques which could be punishing the person if they say what you don't want them to say, rewarding them if they say what you do want them to say. Basically, you have to get control over the person's thoughts, over their lives. You have to set up a reward and punishment system and steer them along the path you want, so they become some kind of robot that will repeat the doctrine you want. If you want to create the second identity, you can use all kinds of threats or you can use actual trauma and fear. The trauma, fear, agitation and upset drive the splitting of the mind just naturally. The human mind attempts to split or dissociate to cope with trauma all the time, whether it be a plane crash, or a natural disaster, or sexual assault in adulthood. The other ingredient with children is that their minds just seem to be more susceptible to this kind of splitting process. A child tends to do that more naturally. ....end first side of tape two, interviews ...