We just found that the therapists had acted improperly and that the father had 
suffered as a result."  If the therapists had not gone out of that 
therapy session there would have been no liability.  So, to protect 
yourself from third party liability claims, make sure you have 
identified who the patient is.  If you bring a third person into 
the therapy session, you can do so but use an informed consent form, 
and the informed consent form should say that, "You are coming in
to assist in the therapy of the patient, name the patient, "You are 
not the patient, and by your appearance here the doctor is undertaking 
no duty and no responsibility to you."  If the person will not come in
under those circumstances, do not bring them in.  That will protect 
you from third party liability.  In terms of liability to patients, 
the problem is difficult, because a lot of the stories you're hearing 
are unbelievable, not unbelievable in the sense that they're physically
impossible, but unbelievable in the sense that people do not want to 
know that these things happen, and they are willing to believe that 
these things do not happen.  The false memory people, in what I call 
the false logic of false memory, commit an error of science when 
they lump together Multiple Personality Disorder, Satanic Cults,
Mind Control Programming, Green Programming, etc., etc. It is important 
that all of those things be separated out.  The DSM-IV  as did some 
of its predecessors, entitles therapists to diagnose a condition 
of Multiple Personality Disorder, or now Dissociative Identity
Disorder. You have the right to do that.  It is a recognized 
psychiatric phenomenon, and though the false memory people may 
not like it, it empowers therapists to diagnose people as having 
that condition.  And so, if you do so, the fact that you have
used that diagnosis is not sufficient to make you legally liable.  
Even if you are wrong in a particular case as to whether a person 
is a multiple, that in and of itself will not necessarily make you 
liable to a patient as long as you have done your work conscientiously 
and you really believe that that was an appropriate diagnosis.  It is
very helpful to network with people to get second opinions, in other 
words, to diffuse the responsibility among other professionals, to 
show that you have done everything possible to make sure that the judgment 
that you passed on that patient was as clinically accurate and correct 
as it could be.  In that context, when we move to Satanic Ritual Abuse, 
we do not find anything in the DSM - IV, and we do not find anything 
on mind control programming either, and so these are tougher grounds,
they are harder to defend, and they are much more difficult to face 
in courts of law.  How do you handle them?  It is a general rule 
of therapy that you will do better as a therapist for your patient 
if you believe the patient or give the appearance of believing the 
patient.  

A good deal of therapy, as all of the studies are showing, has to do 
with the relationship and not the theories used by the therapist.  It 
is the relationship of trust and confidence and authenticity that is
paramount in the healing process.  And so, if a patient comes in and 
says, "I'm an egg plant," you should believe that that person is an 
egg plant for the purpose of sitting in that room, and you can give 
advice to stay out of kitchens, to stay away from knives, you are well
within your rights to take whatever presenting conditions come in and 
work with it at that level.  You get more from accepting what people 
tell you than you do by arguing that they must be crazy or they must 
be wrong --  and I think this is one of the essential points that's
missed by the false memory people because they don't do clinical work, 
and their scientific board, for the most part, doesn't do clinical work
either -- that no matter how strange the presenting ideas, you will do better
clinically by working with them as if they are real than to try to resist 
them and talk your patients out of them.  Now, as to whether you believe 
what they are telling you or not, that's up to you, and that's not 
something that should be the basis of a law suit against you, but 
how you work with a patient is a fiduciary responsibility. It requires 
you to act in the patient's best interest, which means to give the 
patient that sense of sincere belief even if you don't have it.  
Now, the unfortunate thing is that there are many crazy stories 
that we have heard that we've been able to validate.  I'm thinking of
the Jim Thornwell case in particular, where one day some lawyers 
in Oakland called me and said, "We've got some crazy guy here talking 
about mind control and shoot-outs with the French police and truth 
serums and hypnosis and whatever.  We don't have any idea what he's 
talking about.  Why don't you come over and see if you can make
any sense out of it?"  So, I went over there, and I spent a few hours 
with him, and he told me this incredible story about being in Orleans, 
France, and working in a NATO facility, there were some secret 
documents that were missing, and suspicion focused on him.  They 
asked if they could hypnotize him, he said, "Yes," could they use
a polygraph, "Yes," could they use a truth serum, "Yes."  None of 
that showed him to be guilty, but the officers still decided that he 
must have been the one to have taken those documents, and so they 
staged a shoot-out with the French police.  They're driving along, 
and the French police car pulls up, squeals to a halt, the doors
open, the officers come out, start firing at the car in which Jim 
Thornwell is riding, and that car squeals away to get out of the 
gunfire.  Then... That did not phase Thornwell, they could not get 
him to confess, because he said, "I'm innocent."  They then told 
his fellow barracks members that he was having sexual relations 
with their wives, and so when they released him back to the barracks
he wound up getting in a lot of fist fights.  So, they kindly agreed 
to put him under protective custody for his own good, took him to a 
mill, and gave him LSD.  Of course, he didn't know what LSD was at 
the time, almost nobody knew what it was at the time, and he said
that he was sitting down, and the next thing he knew he was off in a 
corner baying like an animal, his head exploding into a thousand 
galaxies, and people saying to him, "Did you take the documents?  
Did you take the documents?"  The experience was so destructive to 
him that he never did get to put his life together, and even
after Congress through a special bill which is almost impossible to get,
awarded him about a half a million dollars, he never got to enjoy that 
because he was found dead under mysterious circumstances shortly 
thereafter. 

It turned out that everything that Jim Thornwell told me, and I have it 
all on tape, was accurate.  As bizarre as the story may sound, we wrote 
to the Army, we got three thousand pages of documents, and one of them 
said, "We're not gonna court martial this man 'cause his memory is too
good and we don't want this on the public record."  And everything that 
he had told us was validated, we turned the story over to SIXTY MINUTES, 
they did it, and then CBS did a film based on his life.  So, no matter 
how strange the story you hear, the patient is at least entitled to the
presumption of some truth in it, and you must work with that some truth.  

The false memory argument that I accept is that therapists have been
unfamiliar with a literature on suggestion and social influence, and 
in fact are implanting the memories rather than recovering them.  I've 
had enough experience testifying in courts to know that the false memory 
people have correctly identified a problem, a problem that could
have been solved by now had they not been vicious in the way in which 
they sought their own solutions.  But the false memory argument that 
therapists are implanting memories leads to a development that you need 
to know about, because I think it is the next step in therapy, and it's 
not inconsistent with what you've heard from the prior two speakers. 
There has never been a reason in your training why you should have to 
read police interrogation manuals, the brainwashing literature, the
literature on suggestion, the literature on persuasion and social 
influence, but that time has now come.  You are in essence being accused 
by the false memory people of not being familiar with the basic currency 
in which your profession traffics, and that is manipulating people.
Interestingly enough, I accept the argument of the false memory people, 
but I reject their conclusion. The false memory people argue that therapy 
is in fact persuasion or manipulation, and that's what's wrong with
it.  I argue that's what's right with it, and that what we have to do 
is to recognize that yes, there is in the therapy setting, a relationship 
that is disproportionate in terms of power, in which one person is 
stronger and more knowledgeable, and another person is more dependent,
and the job in that relationship is for the person who is more powerful 
to change by consent the person who is more dependent.  The patient 
comes to you, and doesn't say, "I like the way I am.  Let's just sit 
around and talk."  The patient comes and says, "Change me," and the 
false memory people now want to sue you for doing it.  I think they've
missed the point.  I think yes it is true that you have not been aware 
of the suggestion literature, and the social influence literature and the
police interrogation literature, and that you will have to know that
literature now because there's a new standard of care for practicing 
therapy emerging, and that the ultimate conclusion of what the false 
memory people are saying is to up the ante on the kind of training 
therapists will have to have, but that's simply gonna put on the table
the one question that therapy has been avoiding all of this century, 
and that is the ethics of manipulating people, and with the recognition 
that you are in a social influence relationship when you are with a 
patient, then your job is to do it well and to use the techniques that
are available to you not to hurt the patient and not to mind-control 
the patient, but to allow the patient to change usually outside of the
conscious awareness of the patient, in a way that that change can be
therapeutic.  And to do that you must know the social influence
literature, and so, for some people on the false memory board, they 
point a finger at you and they say, "You see, you're a mini-cult.  
The relationship between a therapist and a patient is like the 
relationship between a cult leader and a follower."  And then 
they say, "Well, actually, you know, you're like a police officer 
doing an interrogation," 'cause the same principles apply in both
settings -- both social influence settings -- and so they see you 
as mini-cults and mini-police interrogation stations, and accuse 
you of using techniques of social influence. 

I argue that they are right to point out that these are social 
influence settings, but they cannot point to any setting which 
is not social influence-based.  Any time two people interact with 
one another the laws of social influence apply, and your job is 
not to get rid of the social influence aspect of doing therapy, 
but rather to do it better and make sure you do it in ways which 
are consistent with your fiduciary responsibility to the
patient.  And in the long run, when the false memory people go away, 
what will happen is that you will have learned the laws of suggestion, 
the laws of police interrogation, all the things that we'll be talking 
about during the next couple of days, and that eventually it
will be part of the basic training in therapy schools for people to 
be familiar with this literature.  And in that sense we... I think 
an odd thing has happened.  In the 1970's when we were working on 
our books, mind control was this demon, and the government had played 
with it and we were trying to rest those files from the government
control.  Really what we're trying to do is to tame mind control and 
to find ways for it to work for everybody's betterment, and if we can
accomplish that, then we'll be twice blessed.  We would have solved 
the problem we started in the '70's and we would have eliminated the
unfair condemnation of the false memory movement.  Thank you.

  (applause)

RANDY NOBLITT:

I want to thank the speakers.  I also have... Those of you that know 
me know that I'm gonna have two cents to add, so... Some of you may be
wondering though at this point, "Okay.  Mind control.  What does it 
have to do with cults?"  Since that word is associated with the
topic for this conference, I wonder how many people out there think 
that there are groups, cults, whatever, where they practice let's say 
harmful, deviant, black magic, Satanism, not witchcraft in the sense 
of Wicca but dark arts so to speak.  I wonder how many people think that. 
Now, some of you might be wondering, "What is the connection between 
cults, witchcraft, Satanism," and so on, and the mind control that 
you're going to be hearing a great deal about from the finest experts 
on that subject here.  And that's an important point, and I'm
hoping that if we accomplish one thing in this conference it is that 
we get a clear sense about what is the connection, because there is a
connection.  First of all, when you think about what people are calling 
Satanic Cults, many of you are aware that the false memory syndrome 
folks are arguing that this is entirely a fantasy concept, you know, 
it has no basis in reality, that people stay up too late and watch 
late-night T.V. or they go see a therapist who's fanatical, and I had 
such a patient.  Actually, I've seen about two hundred.  This is a 
garment that her false memories conjured up in her attic.  I'm
not sure how her false memories did it, but here it is. I'm gonna be 
talking a little bit more about this robe because it has an interesting 
story associated with it. It was brought to me by a patient who found 
it in her residence.  She dissociated and was able to explain what
it meant and what it was about, but in her waking normal state she 
was shocked and horrified that she foUnd this in her residence.  
In fact there's a part of the garment that she didn't even know 
what is was, and we'll be talking more about that later.  It was 
found in a box with roses, dried roses, very old, and a newspaper
that's twenty years old, that apparently was just used for packing 
purposes.  So, it's amazing what these false memories can produce 
out of nothing.  But anyway, we need to start thinking about what 
is the common thread that goes through all this, and actually there 
is a common thread, and it goes back even further historically than
Satanism or what people call Satanism.  I say that and I qualify that,
because I don't believe that everybody who puts on a black robe is a 
Satanist.  I think there are times that fraternities do stunts like 
that, and... In fact, I think our previous President, Bush, wasn't he 
a member of a group called the SKULL AND BONES, and I think they put on 
things like this.  Of course, {slight laugh} that doesn't seem to 
disprove {laughter from audience} you all, but I'm trying, I'm trying 
my best.  Anyway, {laughter from audience} maybe I should have taken a
different {laughter from audience} kind of logic there.  But actually, 
this is an old story, and it's a story of trauma, it's a story of slavery, 
it's a story of the complete annihilation of other human beings when you
can get away with it.  It's a very, very sad story and it has a long 
history.  We can hear about that story and read about it in old documents 
such as The Bible.  The Bible talks about children passing through the 
fire.  It talks about horrible things happening.  And... Of course 
many people may have just thought, "Well, that's kind of an interesting 
story," you know, "What does it mean?"  What does it mean that Aztecs 
and other Meso-Americans would flay people on an altar and consume 
their heart?  What does that... What is that all about?  Well, my 
argument is, there's a thread that goes all through this, and if
we want to go back in time we can go all the way back to the worship 
of nature, Shamanism, and so on.  Trauma has always been viewed 
throughout history as a way of creating altered states of consciousness.
Trauma...There are a variety of ways to create altered states of
consciousness.  Obviously you can meditate, you can do hypnosis, you 
can listen to drums pounding and they'll kind of carry you off and 
you'll drift a little bit, but nothing really exciting happens.  
Nothing very impressive happens.  It's my belief that many, many 
years ago people learned that if you traumatize a person in a certain 
way you can create the god, the god that you worship, and so for that 
reason many early religions, many very old religions included trauma 
in their worship.  In fact there's a book out, some of you may have 
seen it, it's called GOD IS A TRAUMA, and it's particularly about 
some of the gnostic, traumatic practices that went back into ancient 
times.  We can carry this back even further than say the ancient times, 
the ancient Medieval times, back to, again, Shamanism.  Now, it's hard 
to really understand Shamanism in detail now, the ancient version,
because again, many of these practices are pre-literate. We have no 
way to know exactly what people did.  We just see these examples, 
for example, in the Mayan temples, and we know that these buildings 
were probably used for  these purposes, but it's a little easier to 
understand if we look into the Shamanistic practices of modern times. 
For example, I wonder how many people here are familiar with the 
Sun-Gazing dance or the Sun Dance as it's called.  Some of you are.
Okay.  Well, this is still practiced in North America.  Some of you 
may have seen the movie that came out some, I guess, twenty years ago,
A MAN CALLED HORSE, and in the movie... I thought it was totally 
fictional, because I didn't think you could ever get anybody who 
would agree to be lifted up but with hooks stuck in their pectoral 
muscles.  I didn't figure a big line would establish with people 
waiting to do that, but... And I assumed it was totally fictional, 
but as it turns out I was doing some reading on Shamanism and
I read a modern-day account and I saw photographs of them doing 
the Sun Dance now--the Sun-Gazing Dance--and again,  the idea's very simple,
and I'll be talking about this more when I get into more programming in
particular.  To me this is where programming begins, where people 
perhaps learned accidentally that the use of trauma and other kinds 
of ritual acts can produce dissociative states, can produce dissociated
identities. 


That is, you can produce the deity, and many villages may have wanted to 
have their deity there, and it may have been a great honour for some 
child to go through these horrible procedures so that the village could 
have their deity right there with them.  Well, through time these
practices passed through some changes, but not a whole lot.  Many of 
you are probably aware of the Mystery Cults that existed around in the
Mediterranean during the ancient and up until the Medieval times.  
Many of these involved traumatic rituals as well, and so now we have
people making allegations that some of the modern-day remnants of 
these Mystery Cults, that is, the fraternal organizations of modern 
times, engage in this kind of behavior as well.  There are also many 
other pre-industrial cults.  There's an excellent book by Oki, an
African, Juju High Priest, who writes about the traumatic ordeals that 
were used in his West African community on people, and he describes the
dissociation that also occurs there, so these things are happening now.  
Now, some of you may wonder though, "Okay.  This makes sense, it's 
logical," and somewhere in there Satanism is a part, too.  We hear 
so much about Satanism.  Certainly there must be some... I mean, 
where's there's smoke, you know, there's gotta be something to that.  
So, where's the connection with the U.S. government and other 
governments and C.I.A. and Military Intelligence?  I mean, doesn't
this really sound awfully far-fetched?  Well, we can go back to the 
Hellfire Clubs of England and Ireland in the 1700's, and we see a very 
clear connection there between governments, powerful members of 
governments, and bizarre occult or Satanic, whatever you want to call 
it, dark kinds of activities.  As you all... As many of you probably 
know, Ben Franklin was a visitor of the Hell Fire Club in London or 
outside of London, and additionally the organization that was 
established in the outskirts of London was actually created by 
Sir Francis Dashwood, who shortly thereafter became the Chancellor 
Of The Exchequer Of Great Britain.  In other words, he would be the 
equivalent of the Secretary Of The Treasury. We're talking about top 
level government.  He was a close personal friend to George III.  
I mean, very high-level government type individual.  And this was an 
individual who was carrying on in his residence bizarre practices
that included blasphemous religious acts, bizarre sexual acts, and 
so on.  Well, this is where we see a rather obvious beginning connection
between government and bizarre occult and other kinds of procedures 
like that.  Allister Crowley's another individual where we see a very
clear connection between occultism, possibly Satanism, and governments.
Crowley, of course, was involved with the British Intelligence as many
of you know, and from then we have this marriage made in hell so to speak.  

In any case, there is a clear connection between the use of trauma in a
ritualized manner and the development of dissociated individuals, the
individuals that are coming forth that we're seeing nowadays clinically,
and hopefully... I'm hoping that in this particular conference we'll be 
able to show that connection, how it is, how it works, and hopefully give 
an opportunity for... We have many survivors who will be here telling
their stories.  We also will have some mothers who are protective mothers, 
who are doing their best to try to protect children in extremely abusive
environments, and they're finding out that the government who was supposed
to protect them is doing just the opposite, and we'll have time to talk 
about that as well.  This is one of the great tragedies, is that 
something horrible is going on, but the people that we all should be 
able to trust to help us don't seem to be doing their job.  And that 
is why it is my belief that we must have a citizens' movement to correct 
this terrible wrong.  Now, you may wonder what good can people do, just
individual people?  Those of you who may be familiar with the history 
of the Mafia may know that the... Oh!  Maybe I should ask.  Do any of 
you believe the Mafia exists? {laughter from audience} There's one 
person over there.  Okay.  Did you know that there was a group that came out
that said the Mafia did not exist?  And in fact, they persuaded the Governor 
of New York at that time to become a member.  They affected the production
of THE GODFATHER so that they took the word Mafia out.  And in fact, I have 
to admit that for a long time I didn't know if there was such a thing as 
the Mafia, and I didn't use that word out of respect to Italian-Americans.  
I still do respect Italian-Americans, but I know that the Mafia does 
exist, because in 1989 the FBI did finally get a tape, an audio tape, 
of a Mafia initiation ceremony.  Anyway, the false... I mean, not the 
false memory syndrome, not them but this organization trying to protect
Italians eventually did succeed in convincing many people that the
Mafia did not exist.  In fact, it does exist.  Well, the interesting 
thing though, I'm going about this in a very circuitous way, many of you 
know that the Mafia did not first start in New York.  That was not really 
where it first got started.  I think that there's an excellent parallel 
here between the Mafia and these various agencies of the government and
individuals practicing these deviant acts, because the bottom line is that
they're engaging in criminal behaviour, organized crime, it's a kind of
organized crime, and we know that our government is capable of engaging in
organized crime. 

We're learning that more and more all the time.  But the Mafia, since it 
did begin in New Orleans, it was first operative in New Orleans, was 
very successful, and there were some cases that came up where people 
complained and there were efforts to prosecute the Mafiosi, but they
were entirely unsuccessful.  Aren't you all amazed, that the government 
was unable, the local government was unable to effectively prosecute the
Mafiosi in the late 1800's in New Orleans?  This comes as a shock to 
many of you I understand.  But the Mafia were essentially driven
out of New Orleans, not entirely obviously, I don't think you can ever 
there now, but how was it done?  It was done by a citizens' movement, 
by a grassroots group of people who decided they were not going to have
this in their community any more, so it is my belief that if we truly
want to see this kind of horror stopped, it is something that we as 
citizens, we as human beings, will have to make that commitment to, 
and I'm hoping that this, that our organization in part and you've 
heard about other organizations here that are looking toward that same
goal, that as we join together as a whole we will be successful in this
endeavour.  
**************************************************************************
WAYNE MORRIS:

We've been listening to a lecture by Dr. Randy Noblitt, Walter BoWart, 
and Dr. Alan Scheflin, and you've been listening to The International
Connection here on CKLN, 88.1 FM.  Stay tuned next week.  We're going
to feature the  next two weeks a lecture about the history of mind
control, what we know and what we don't, by Dr. Alan Scheflin.  You're
listening to 88.1.