CKLN FM 88.l SERIES ON MIND CONTROL Producer: Wayne Morris Tape 9a WAYNE MORRIS: We are in week #9 of a radio series about mind control in Canada and the U.S., and today we're going to be hearing a lecture by some of the original writers about this topic. We're going to hear from Walter Bowart who wrote OPERATION MIND CONTROL back in 1978, Dr. Alan Scheflin who wrote THE MIND MANIPULATORS also in 1978 based on the files that were released in the 1977 Kennedy Hearings in the U.S. We're also going to hear from Randy Noblitt who has written about cult ritual abuse. This lecture was recorded at a conference on cult abuse, trauma and dissociation Dallas, Texas in 1995. You're listening to CKLN 88.1 fm. PAMELA PERSKIN: Before we get started here I had a couple of remarks that I just would like to make. Everybody is here for their own purposes. Either you are survivors or you know survivors or you treat survivors or all of the above, and we hope that you'll gain something from your interacting both with our presenters and with one another. We believe that there is a diversity of opinion as to what is going on, what's happening. We should all be concerned that whatever is happening, it's producing people who are being damaged, and it's our responsibility as citizens and as human beings to reach out and try to stop this. I'd like to present our first speaker, Dr. Randy Noblitt. He is a clinical psychologist in private practice. He has developed a lot of expertise, somewhat against his will, in the area of ritual and cult abuse. He's the author of a book to be published in August entitled CULT AND RITUAL ABUSE: ITS HISTORY, ANTHROPOLOGY AND RECENT DISCOVERY IN CONTEMPORARY AMERICA. So, without further ado here's Dr. Noblitt. (applause) RANDY NOBLITT: Actually, I'm not going to be a speaker right now, I'm just going to make a few comments and introduce the panel that we have today, which... I am in awe of the opportunity to stand up here with these gentlemen. I'm very happy that we've been able to attract such a profoundly skilled, well-known, courageous group of people to come here and talk. First of all, we have a gentleman that many of you, probably almost everyone here knows or has heard of. Some of you may have been fortunate enough to see or read his book, OPERATION MIND CONTROL. I'd be interested in hearing more from Walter Bowart why I can't go to the store and buy a copy of it, and maybe he'll tell us all some more about that. But he has an organization called The Freedom Of Thought Foundation, and today, Walter Bowart, who is one of the eminent international experts on mind control, will speak to us a little bit on the subject of mind control. So, I introduce to you Walter Bowart. (applause) WALTER BOWART: Thank you, Randy. Thank you, Pam. I haven't seen Alan Scheflin in, what, twenty-five years, when we went over all of those C.I.A. documents in, what, 1977? ALAN SCHEFLIN: 1976/1977. WALTER BOWART: And I was looking at people registering and I said, I was thinking, "Is that Alan? {slight laugh} Is that Alan?," you know how you do when you're trying to meet somebody at the airport and you haven't seen them for years, but then immediately as soon as I saw him I recognized him again. I'm a journalist, and in 1978 I published a book, it was published in five languages, called OPERATION MIND CONTROL, and I was paid full royalties for millions of copies, it was a best seller. I went on a national tour in the United States. I did ninety-eight radio and television interviews in thirty-three cities in thirty days. When I went through O'Hare Airport in Chicago, going out for two weeks, I saw racks and racks full of the book, and I came back two weeks later and there were none, but nobody seems to have that book. The book is now fetching $250 in used bookstores if you can find it, if it's in mint condition. If it's in tattered and torn dog-eared condition, that little $3 paperback is worth $20 today. I have since updated it and I have put out a thing that's actually two volumes, twice the size, and revised all of my errors, because I didn't know what multiple personality was in those days, really. I didn't diagnose anything, I just reported what had happened. And today doctors and psychiatrists, psychologists and therapists are using the book and saying, "That's a multiple personality," Candy Jones and all the others that I mentioned. Since then... By that time, in 1978 before the book came out, I'd interviewed three hundred survivors, and now I've interviewed thousands and I've lost count. I've seen several patterns emerge, and one of them is the Satanic or cult ritual abuse pattern, and the other one's the alien abduction experience, and I'm talking later in the week on that subject and I have some very interesting charts and graphs that were developed by a psychologist who wishes to be, go anonymous, remain anonymous, and she and I have developed, added the mind control to the comparison of descriptions and reports from people that report alien abduction experiences, ritual abuse, and the government mind control side of things. And it's very interesting for the similarity, there are so many similarities it looks like one and the same thing, but it's worth discussing the differences and that's what I'll, what will be coming up. I founded the Freedom Of Thought Foundation because I'm trying to network people who have known for now almost thirty years and who are duplicating their efforts, a lot of them, everybody's got a little group and everybody's goin' in their own direction and there hasn't been much communication nationally and internationally. For example, in Germany today the prevalent belief system in the wards, in the psychiatric wards in hospitals, is that there's no such thing as M.P.D., and probably that's the way they'd like to keep it. Probably for years here that was what gave the intelligence community the advantage, because these people, I think, were diagnosed primarily probably as schizophrenic or something in those days, or some kind of erratic diagnosis, which is happening today. You change the manual, the diagnostic manual, and you get different diagnoses, and if you change the manual enough you're gonna have ten or twelve different diagnoses for the same thing. I'm sure you've seen that. So, I formed the Freedom Of Thought Foundation for the purpose of networking, for the purpose of communicating this information, we publish a monthly newsletter, but to me, at least in my heart, the main ...the thing I kept running up against and I know maybe Alan did, too, and maybe all of you have, is the National Security Act Of 1947. It says in the interests of national security all of your civil rights can be suspended. Criminals can be let loose because they work for the Department Of Defense, and a lot of these people that have perpetrated the crimes that we've seen and the abuse, the sadistic abuse that we're describing here at this conference and the thing that we call mind control, have done that under the charter of The National Security Act Of 1947. The act covers probably more criminal behaviour than it does secrets at this time, there's no more cold war, so I think that the time has come for us to call for the abolition or the repeal of The National Security Act, and for us as citizens to take back our Bill Of Rights and our Constitution, (applause) thank you ... and also to hold a cold war crimes trial and prosecute the tyrants that have done this. (applause) Thank you. I feel the same way you do. March 15th last, Valerie Wolf testified before The President's Commission On Radiation, and through I think Randy and Mark I was fortunate enough to talk to her before, almost during and after the testimony. She took two survivors with her, one with amazing abilities that you very often find with re-integrated multiple personalities or multiple personalities that aren't re-integrated for that matter, an incredible eidetic memory, and she had dates and codes and times and names of the doctors, and they named six doctors, among them Martin T. Orne of The University Of Pennsylvania, somebody I've been trying to interview for thirty {slight laugh} years, and he's always run out. I almost got him on the golf course one time, but he's always run from me. Also, Dr. Sidney Gottlieb, the C.I.A. doctor, and Col. L. Wilson Green, U.S. Army Defense Intelligence, Chemical Warfare Division, Defense Intelligence Agency. These men and three others who, I didn't recognize their names, were among the doctors and professionals that were named in this. I said... I told a local doctor, a psychiatrist here one time talking on the phone, I said, " You know, you all, you psychiatrists created this mess, and it's gonna be up to you to clean it up," and he agreed with me, and then I said, well, then I'd give him a year or two and hold him to it, and if he doesn't get busy and do something about it I'm gonna add his name to the list, 'cause if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem as far as I'm concerned. You all know about the experimentation that was done on everyone. We are a nation of Guinea pigs since 1940, and the earliest mind control situation that I've run across in the modern context was the situation of a naval officer who apparently was working either behind enemy lines or... He was on a, one of the islands that were in Japanese territory, and so he got taken by the Japanese, captured by the Japanese, and he was tortured, but before that it seems as though he did some torturing himself. He knew a lot about the atrocities of war, so he had Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, and the Naval Intelligence people used their techniques that were being developed in MKUltra in those days to suppress his memories. He did not remember, and he died in the early '90's, or late '80's. He didn't remember a thing. He had a wife and children, he'd raised them, almost fifty years went by, everything was hunky-dory, he was blissfully oblivious, total amnesia, but then he started having cardiovascular accidents or strokes, and back came all these memories, and he died in terror, screaming the nightmares that he should have screamed back fifty years before. Now, that's a gruesome story, I hate to see a human being suffer, but there's hope in that story, because it means that memories cannot be suppressed, that all of the memories are going to come back, that there's some kind of an emulsion, like a film emulsion on the human soul that remembers things, and be that was it is. Also, the False Memory, I call it the Spindrome Foundation, {group laughter}} and I hope you'll start using that term because I think it is a spindrome and that it is not a syndrome. Look up the word syndrome and you will find that what they're talkin' about is not a syndrome it is a spindrome, especially since it was Martin T. Orne who founded the organization and came up with the board of directors -- very important. This is a Central Intelligence Agency action. It is an action aimed at the psychological and psychiatric and mental health community, to discredit you, to keep you in fear and terror, and you're an easy group to terrorize, I want to tell you. You've got a license that the government has issued, most of you. The therapists and social workers and others are freer, I think, and I think there's where the cutting edge is going to be, where you're going to find it. My friend who wishes to remain anonymous, a brilliant psychologist, told me, reminded me to not feel insecure about talking to you experienced hands in the fields of mental healing, because, she said, "These people need your input because every advance that has ever occurred in psychology has come about from somebody outside of the community, from a non-professional." So, a thing that I'd like to talk about, and I know that Mark Phillips is very well aware of this and Randy knows all about classical conditioning, and Mark calls it one thing, Randy calls it another, and I call it Neuro-Linguistics Programming because I learned it from the President's therapist, Tony Anthony Robbins, {slight laugh} and it was used in military and C.I.A. training and it is absolutely the Rosetta Stone for unlocking the human unconscious or subconscious or whatever you want to call it, the part where you're not conscious, and ninety percent of us are not conscious most of the time, you know. And so, there is a system by which you can wake up and take charge, and you can, though it sounds like a cliche, a new-age cliche, you can create your own reality, you must create your own reality, and there's nobody gonna do it but you, and we all must do it together. If you as therapists are finding that you've got a lot, your phones are ringing all the time and you've got patients all over you and you've got no time, the meaning of communication is the response you get, and I think maybe instead of teaching these people how to fish, you are feeding them fish, and now you've gotta start teaching them how to fish for themselves, and Neuro-Linguistics Programming is a very rapid and immediate, effective technique that you can adapt... It isn't... I don't... Anthony Robbins doesn't call it Neuro-Linguistics Programming. A guy named Richard Bandler who had associations with the C.I.A., worked with a guy named John Grinder who was more a family counsellor, most of you know this, but Bandler bragged to some of his students one time, "I'll bet I could commit murder and use this to get myself off." Several years later he was involved in a murder trial and he was, he was declared innocent, by a jury of his peers I'm told. And it was very interesting, and it's in the book OPERATION MIND CONTROL, but the question comes up that since he boasted about it in the beginning, did he get away with exactly what he did? And every attorney needs to know Neuro-Linguistics Programming and probably a lot of them do. Robbins uses that guy with the cowboy hat from Wyoming, what's his name, Jerry Spence, as an example and modelled Jerry Spence. Modelling is... I'm sure all of you know about modelling and I'm sure some of you know N.L.P., too, as well, and call it what you will, it's Ericksonian technique, and I first learned some of it from my encounters with Milton Erickson when I was writing OPERATION MIND CONTROL. Dr. Erickson was found in the files and he had, you know, the way it appeared he had used hypnosis to get a Japanese colonel to confess all of the secrets of state. He said no, he didn't do that, Margaret Meade told him that the Code Of Yushido said that if you touched these guys on the top of the head they had to commit suicide, "So I talked to this guy, there was a Marine with a rifle on him, he couldn't get anywhere, he was locked in a room, he could see the rifleman aiming at him through the windows, if he had done anything he would've been a dead man, and I said to the guy, "Okay, you're dead now, tell me the secrets", and the guy spilled the beans. So, that was what I learned from Erickson, that the context, the manipulation of the context is what we're talking about with all of these things. What we see as ritual abuse, mind control, or the alien abduction things, these are state-dependent things. These are dependent upon a state that's evoked and then anchored, and by collapsing the anchors you can loosen the state, jar it loose, and then deprogram people. We can go through the entire history. In '43 there was LSD. discovered by Hoffmann, in '47 the army conducted all kinds of hypnosis experiments, in '50 Richard Helms accompanied--he's the D.C.I. of C.I.A.--he accompanied two doctors to the U.S. Embassy annex in Japan, where four Japanese were interrogated under these new fledgling MKUltra techniques. That same year, in 1950 the Director Of Research Addiction at the research centre in Lexington, Kentucky, kept seven men on LSD for seventy-seven straight days, and then addicts were paid off in heroin if they took part in the drug experiments. In '51, McGill University's Donald Hebb -- and so on and so on and so on -- and it hasn't stopped yet. In 19... What is it here? I have the date. Just a year or so ago, 19... It was '94, I think, yes, October, 1994, the U.S. became a State Party to The Convention Against Torture And Other Cruel, Inhuman Or Degrading Treatment Or Punishment. The Senate had ratified it four years before it was signed, and I think that the delay was because they wanted to finish up on some of you--finish up their tortures. Now it's illegal by international treaty, whether or not we can enforce that remains to be seen. In order to enforce that we have to abolish, repeal... Just like our mom and dad repealed the Volstead Act and said, "Now we can drink a beer legally," we have to repeal The National Security Act. RANDY NOBLITT: Alan Scheflin, also, is a great honour to be on a dais with, and to introduce. Many of you probably have heard about his work. He's the author of, again one of the very early books in mind control, THE MIND MANIPULATORS, which came out in 1978, he's also the author of a more recent book, TRANCE ON TRIAL, and he'll be speaking about the legal climate right now that has, that influences all of us regarding the concerns about false memories, the other legal aspects that seem to be coming around to plague those of us who are working in this area. So, without any further ado, it is a great honour to introduce to you all Alan Scheflin. (applause) ALAN SCHEFLIN: Thank you. It's a great privilege to be here. As with Walter, I'm nostalgic about times past, when there were three of us and only three of us. John Marks, Walter, and I were working on books. We had the good fortune to collaborate together, so we were able to learn each other's stories and research and share them, and it was a very open spirit but there just were three of us. And the idea of a conference like this was unthinkable, the idea that we would have to keep doing this, I think, was unthinkable. I don't know whether Walter shares my naivete, but I thought in 1978, when THE NEW YORK TIMES was running headlines about the C.I.A. mind control programmes, when our books were appearing, when we were doing media work all over the world, that we would finally get the story out, the vaults would be cleansed, the victims would learn their identities, the story would become part of history, and the people who had been injured could seek recompense. Instead, what happened was the great void. As soon as the story hit the paper it was yesterday's news, and we waited and waited for the Congressional hearings and we waited for the lists of people who were victims to be notified, and none of that happened, and for a long period of time consisting of all of the'80's and now almost half of the '90's, we waited to see the government do justice to the people that it had done experiments on unfairly and unfortunately. But that didn't happen, and so now we're gathered again to ask the government to release the files, to give us the information, and our need is great now than it was in 1978, because in 1978 we only had a little inkling of the story. Now we know that it's bigger and stranger and more difficult to grasp than we ever thought, we know that there are more victims than we conceived of, and we know that there was more pain involved than we could ever have imagined. So, on the plus side there are no longer three of us, there are many more. We must network, we must share, we must learn to investigate and produce good, solid data, and for the first time we have an enemy, which we did not have in 1977 and '76 and '75 when we began this research, and so we have to address the issues of the enemy. I'll turn to that in a moment, but I wanted to make a couple of points first. One is that the climate in those days was so much different than today. I remember working on the George White story... George White was a renegade C.I.A.and Bureau Of Narcotics agent who did some mind control experiments almost on a free-lance basis. He would try the drugs first and then give them to his friends. And so, I heard that the George White Papers were in a little college about twenty minutes away from where I teach, and I called up the college and asked if I could come by and look at the documents, and they said, "Sure," and I made an appointment for the following Tuesday, and about a day and a half later I get a call from the librarian, and God bless that librarian who said to me, "We've just learned that the Justice Department is issuing a subpoena to shut down everyone's access to this information. If you can get here right away we'll let you look through all of it." And so, before... In the presence of an armed guard who could have shot me if I had tried to take any of those documents or do anything with them, I was able to read through all of George White's diaries. These days we wouldn't even have access to the diaries. We wouldn't have access to a good deal of the information that we were able to stumble on quite naively then, because there was not an organized force against us. In this world, because of the false memory issue, it is important that you avoid legal liability, and given the nature of the material that we're talking about today, there are some hints I've got to give you and some tips that you should know to avoid liability, and here they are. In the first instance, it is almost impossible for therapists to be sued on third party liability theories, if the therapist does nothing other than work within the therapy session and not go outside it. Now, generally therapists can be sued by either patients or third parties. Third parties have no standing to sue therapists, and I argue ought not to have standing to sue therapists. If the false memory movement is successful in creating third party liability, and there is legislation now being proposed in half the states to do just that, it will put therapists in the position as follows. If you believe your patients the third parties will sue you, if you don't believe your patients the patients will sue you. That's a conflict of interest, and it's impermissible in any profession, yours as well as the legal profession, where we have a series of very well-worked-out rules to guard against conflict of interest. And so, for third party liability, do not leave the therapy session, and here's what I mean by do not leave the therapy session. You may be familiar with the Ramona case, it's been written about a great deal, involving the man in Napa who sued a therapist successfully, claiming that the therapist had implanted memories of child abuse in his daughter. He got a judgment for $475,000, and the false memory media machine said, "This is proof that these things happen and this is our first major court victory." Well, here's what happened in that case. The therapist's patient went in with an eating disorder complaint and came out with recollections of child abuse. The jury was given only one question in reference to the negligence of the therapist, and that question was, did they negligently implant memories? The jury felt that the therapists were negligent, but not that they had implanted memories, and so the jury did the only it could to reach a verdict it thought was just, because the judge had given improper instructions to them. The jury said, "Well, we'll find the therapists negligent, we'll just ignore the fact that the grounds that the verdict says are the implantation of memories." The therapists acted improperly in their therapy. They stressed the childhood sexual abuse issue as opposed to the eating disorder issue. They were not familiar with the literature. The initial therapist brought in a psychiatrist who used sodium amytal interviews improperly to anchor the memories, and then claimed that the sodium amytal works as a truth serum and therefore the memories must be true. All of that would still not have created liability, but the therapists went one step further. They asked the father to come to the hospital and see the daughter as part of the therapy. The father flew down to the hospital, and the daughter was coming out of the sodium amytal interview, accused her father, the therapist in a hallway filled with people said to the father, "You'd better confess. You'd better confess. You know you did it. It'll make everybody better if you confess." By having stepped out of the therapy session that way they triggered a bizarre case in California known as the Molian case. This case is so bizarre that the Supreme Court has tried to overrule it twice, but doesn't understand the case well enough to know how to overrule it. They said, "We would overrule it, but we don't know what we'd be overruling." The case, the Molian case, involves a simple fact pattern. Wife goes to a doctor, doctor says, "You have syphilis, go tell your husband and make sure he gets treatment," she goes back and tells him and sues him for divorce because if she had syphilis she must've gotten it from him, the family falls apart, it turns out the doctor's diagnosis was incorrect, and the husband now sues the doctor. The husband, of course, had never been a patient of the doctor. The Molian case held that the doctor, by telling the wife to tell her husband, created a direct duty owed to the husband, and thereby in a sense made the husband a patient, and it's on that, the basis of that case that third party liability rests in the Ramona case. Now, the Ramona case is touted as a big false memory victory. It cost the father one-and-a-half million dollars to bring the case to trial to get a verdict of four hundred and seventy-five dollars back. That may have been a moral victory, it certainly was not an economic victory, and on the moral victory side an interesting thing happened right after the verdict. The father went on television and said, "I have been vindicated. Everything I said about those therapists and implanting memories was true." The jury went on television and said, "No. It's not that way. We didn't believe the father. We knew he was a salesman." He worked for (inaud) {company's name} He had one of those unpleasant jobs somebody has to do, worked in a winery and made four hundred thousand dollars a year doing that. The father claimed that this was a victory for him. The jury said, "We didn't believe him. We don't know whether the therapists implanted memories or not. We didn't address that issue and we certainly don't believe him when he said he didn't do the acts.